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This page contains all of the posts and discussion on MemeStreams referencing the following web page: Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows. You can find discussions on MemeStreams as you surf the web, even if you aren't a MemeStreams member, using the Threads Bookmarklet.

Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by Decius at 4:10 pm EST, Jan 26, 2006

Bush, whose aides said they consider the issue a clear political winner, is resurrecting tactics from the last campaign to make the NSA spying program a referendum on which party will keep the United States safe from terrorists. He has dispatched top White House officials almost daily to defend the program and has sent a message to party activists that he considers fighting terrorism with tools such as NSA eavesdropping the defining issue of the November elections

Worth reading. Troublesome.

The story here is not whether or not it ought to be authorized but whether or not is was authorized. Almost no one understands this distinction. The Republican talking points are:
1. Its legal.
2. Its needed to defend America.
3. People raising questions about its legality are partisan hacks who don't care about the safety of the American people.

The problem is that its probably not legal. I haven't seen a legal analysis coming from outside the administration that jives with the position of the administration. But the common man is not going to understand subtle Constitutional questions. The Democrats have to fight this fight, because its a basic separation of power issue. They can't just leave it on the floor. However, they are going to loose the political dialog because you really have to think about this in order to understand it, and most people are incapable of doing that, and many who aren't are partisan enough to be unwilling to do it objectively. If the Republicans loose in court they are likely to be able to spin that its another example of judicial activism and the ACLU hates America, etc...

What it really comes down to is the honesty of the Republican Party at large. They are being told, via this message, to tow the line on this. They are trapped in a position where if they disagree on this issue they must risk the support of the party and their political chances in November in order to take a stand. This issue will not fly if enough Republicans take a stand on it, but its going to be a very, very difficult decision for them to make (which is why Rove is putting the above sort of pressure on them).

On the balance is the entire idea of the rule of law. If the President can simply violate the law at will, argue that the court system is biased, and pressure the legislature into towing the line for political reasons, there effectively is no law. Or, in particular, there is no law with regard to minority interests. As long as the President is capable of garnering popular support for something it can be pursued irrespective of the checks and balances in our system.

The Miers nomination demonstrated that the Conservative legal community is capable of fighting the President when it wants to. This is a time and place where it ought to. We'll see if it has the guts. If it doesn't, we'll have slipped quite far down the slope toward an unravelling of the rule of law...


 
RE: Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by Dagmar at 2:38 am EST, Jan 27, 2006

Decius wrote:

The story here is not whether or not it ought to be authorized but whether or not is was authorized. Almost no one understands this distinction.

Dude, I really think they do understand it--they're just playing stupid to avoid answering the questions. You might have seen my little blowup over the way the issue was covered on Larry King. Never have I seen a larger group of people who are supposed to be intelligent flagrantly sidestep direct questions by providing answers to different things that no one's actually questioning.

Bush egregiously broke the law and was derelict to his oath of office. It's time for him to go back to Texas.


  
RE: Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by Decius at 2:44 am EST, Jan 27, 2006

Dagmar wrote:

Decius wrote:

The story here is not whether or not it ought to be authorized but whether or not is was authorized. Almost no one understands this distinction.

Dude, I really think they do understand it--they're just playing stupid to avoid answering the questions. You might have seen my little blowup over the way the issue was covered on Larry King. Never have I seen a larger group of people who are supposed to be intelligent flagrantly sidestep direct questions by providing answers to different things that no one's actually questioning.

Bush egregiously broke the law and was derelict to his oath of office. It's time for him to go back to Texas.

Sir, you could not be more correct, but unfortunately, I missed your "blow up." Where can I catch the archive?


   
RE: Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by Dagmar at 4:09 am EST, Jan 27, 2006

Decius wrote:

Sir, you could not be more correct, but unfortunately, I missed your "blow up." Where can I catch the archive?

http://evildagmar.livejournal.com/

Believe it or not I do actually write things there, although somewhat intermittently.


Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by k at 4:58 pm EST, Jan 26, 2006

Bush, whose aides said they consider the issue a clear political winner, is resurrecting tactics from the last campaign to make the NSA spying program a referendum on which party will keep the United States safe from terrorists. He has dispatched top White House officials almost daily to defend the program and has sent a message to party activists that he considers fighting terrorism with tools such as NSA eavesdropping the defining issue of the November elections

Worth reading. Troublesome.

The story here is not whether or not it ought to be authorized but whether or not is was authorized. Almost no one understands this distinction. The Republican talking points are:
1. Its legal.
2. Its needed to defend America.
3. People raising questions about its legality are partisan hacks who don't care about the safety of the American people.

[ Most troublesome because the Democrats are doing *NOTHING* to take the offensive on this issue. Every single poll I've seen indicates that the american public *doesn't want to be spied on* without warrants, but the dems won't take it up. It's fucking absurd. They're starting to hedge on Alito now too, talking like it's already over and how no matter what the outcome, they said some things that needed saying. But dammit, quit saying things and start DOING things. The democrats aren't marginal because the public isn't behind them.

They're marginal because they won't sack up and take some stands. -k]


 
RE: Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by Dagmar at 2:49 am EST, Jan 27, 2006

k wrote:

Bush, whose aides said they consider the issue a clear political winner, is resurrecting tactics from the last campaign to make the NSA spying program a referendum on which party will keep the United States safe from terrorists. He has dispatched top White House officials almost daily to defend the program and has sent a message to party activists that he considers fighting terrorism with tools such as NSA eavesdropping the defining issue of the November elections

[ Most troublesome because the Democrats are doing *NOTHING* to take the offensive on this issue. Every single poll I've seen indicates that the american public *doesn't want to be spied on* without warrants, but the dems won't take it up. It's fucking absurd. They're starting to hedge on Alito now too, talking like it's already over and how no matter what the outcome, they said some things that needed saying. But dammit, quit saying things and start DOING things. The democrats aren't marginal because the public isn't behind them.

They're marginal because they won't sack up and take some stands. -k]

I think basically no one's taking a strong offensive because Bush has made it rather clear in his statements to the press that he's upset enough about this that he's probably going to destroy the career of anyone who decides to launch an assault on the Holy Oval Office.

Considering that he's got the SS working for him, his brother is governor of Florida, he's put as many of his personal cronies into high-level positions as possible, and his dad used to run the secret police as well as being a former president himself? Well... it's basically a death sentence on the career of anyone who actually sticks their neck out--no matter whether Bush is impeached or not.


  
RE: Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by k at 9:56 am EST, Jan 27, 2006

Dagmar wrote:

I think basically no one's taking a strong offensive because Bush has made it rather clear in his statements to the press that he's upset enough about this that he's probably going to destroy the career of anyone who decides to launch an assault on the Holy Oval Office.

Considering that he's got the SS working for him, his brother is governor of Florida, he's put as many of his personal cronies into high-level positions as possible, and his dad used to run the secret police as well as being a former president himself? Well... it's basically a death sentence on the career of anyone who actually sticks their neck out--no matter whether Bush is impeached or not.

All the more reason it has to be done. I'm ready to see my elected representatives risk their careers over something important. Even die hard conservatives will sit up and take notice if everyone who stands up to the president gets taken out. [Of course, *real* conservatives are a dying breed lately, having been largely replaced by religious fundamentalists (not conservative) and neo-imperialists (not conservative). But still.]

No, it's time to take some big risks and stop being seen as a bunch of goddamn doormats.


Rift Between Parties Over NSA Wiretapping Grows
by finethen at 10:49 am EST, Jan 26, 2006

Bush, whose aides said they consider the issue a clear political winner, is resurrecting tactics from the last campaign to make the NSA spying program a referendum on which party will keep the United States safe from terrorists. He has dispatched top White House officials almost daily to defend the program and has sent a message to party activists that he considers fighting terrorism with tools such as NSA eavesdropping the defining issue of the November elections

Will Democrats finally take a stance on something? Will blowjobs beat breaking the law for top impeachable offenses? Stay tuned.


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