Elonka wrote:
] Ah, just to be clear, I don't have a problem with ID checks at
] bus terminals, hotels, and train stations, either. Those are
] private companies who have the right to refuse service, so I
] believe that they also have the right to institute reasonable
] security measures, and I see an ID check as a reasonable
] measure.

You kind of wriggled around my point to an extent, so I want to reengage it a bit...

First off, and I'm not really very familiar with the law in this area, but I don't think private companies have a "right to refuse service." For example, I'm fairly certain that its illegal to put a big sign in front of your store that says "Whites Only." There are certain things that buinesses can refuse service for (proper dress, behavior), but this isn't a right like freedom of speech is a right. Its a legislated issue. You can refuse service in certain contexts. I don't know exactly what those contexts are. In some cases (such as the American's with Disabilities Act) you are forced to provide service.

However, I won't pursue this point any further. For the purpose of this dicussion I'll conceed that it ought to be legal for companies to require ID for their services for simple identification purposes. I wouldn't do business with such a company, and I'm not sure it should be legal, but its too much of a tangent to explain.

The thing is, we're not talking about a bunch of private companies spontaneously deciding to run ID checks. We're talking about a secret government requirement that forces these companies to do this. In this context we're not talking about private companies operating on their own will, we are talking about a government ID check requirement.

The core point that I'm concerned with is that an ID check is meaningless unless it is correlated with a database. What I'd really like to know is what you think that database should consist of, in the context of a manditory government ID check?

Should you be forced to undergo a warrant check (think traffic tickets) in order to get a hotel room? If not, then where do you draw the line?

Also, consider that the government cannot require you to carry ID on the street, but how meaningful is this if the government can require you to carry ID to do business with a company? Its not really possible to do anything in this country without doing business with a company.

Sure, you could grow your own food, make your own clothing, but its silly to insist that this is a realistic alternative.

So you're really arguing that the government can require an ID check from me for almost everything that I do, many times a day. They should have almost omniscient information about my location and the commercial transactions that I engage in.

This is much much more, well, orwellian then what currently exists.

So, I'll close by observing that our success as a society is directly related to our ability to adapt and innovate. Innovation is not possible in an environment where creativity cannot exist. As creative ideas are, by definition, a dissent from the status quo, creativity cannot exist in an environment where dissent is impossible. Dissent requires privacy of mind, because one must be able to consider and develop independent ideas without being constantly held to the scrutiny of the status quo (called a heretic). Privacy of mind requires privacy of actions and of relationships, because actions are a window into perspectives, and because relationships are the medium through which diverse ideas combine. Privacy of actions and of relationships requires privacy of commerce, particularily in an environment like ours, where most places of assembly are also businesses.

So, if you elmininate privacy of commerce, as you propose, you will knock over a series of dominios that will ultimately weaken our society. There is a good deal of philosophical and legal text on privacy which ought to be referenced here to shore up the relationships I explain above. Here are a few references. I beleive you can find most of these documents on google...

Driving to the Panopticon: A Philosophical Exploration of the Risks to Privacy Posed by the Highway Technology of the Future, Jeffrey H. Reiman, Computer & Technology Law Journal (Vol. 11)

PRESERVING PRIVACY IN THE INFORMATION SOCIETY, Marc Rotenberg

Why privacy is important by James Rachels; in Computer Ethics & Social Values, by Deborah G. Johnson and Helen Nissenbaum

TRUST AND PRIVACY IN CYBERSPACE: A VIEW FROM AN ASIAN VANTAGE POINT, Rohan Samarajiva

RE: How to fly without ID!