Oy, where to start. I've been locked out for two days through a cookie-related error of my own and now I'm back to face the (mariachi) music.

Hijexx wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously, if you rent, try itemizing a portion of your rent on your income taxes as a property tax payment. ...Property taxes are paid by the property owner, not the renter. Said another way, a vacant house can generate property taxes.

By this reasoning, my friends and I do not pay property taxes either. Good to know. But I guess we still pay sales, social security and income? And I guess if they don't verify my ss card, then I would still get those taken out, I wouldn't just get a taxless check every week? And I also guess that means that every citizen I know that mows lawns (my neighbor), paints houses (old co-worker), or cleans houses (aunt) and gets paid in cash wouldn't pay any of those except sales tax? Geez, those taxless illegals. Ruining the tax-free life for the rest of us.

I'll share a study with you. ...
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html
This study was written by the Center for Immigration Studies.

When I read this, something in my head actually went "dun dun DUN!"
Its funny that you picked a John Tanton run org, and one where I have actually met one of the contributors! (Mark Krikorian.)

CIS is one of an umbrella of anti-immigrant organizations founded and funded by John Tanton. Let me tell you how excited I am you brought him up. (First some backround reading, if you care to. Tanton: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=93 CIS and Tanton: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=72)

To make a long, white-supremacist-filled story short, Tanton and his cronies at F.A.I.R. do a great job of what you alleged I do: the good old bait and switch. You get lured in by their dislike of illegals, but then find out that, actually, they don't like legals! And more specifically, non-whites in general. They recieve $$$ from the Pioneer fund (you know, The Bell Curve?)share members with the Council of Conservative Citizens (check 'em out : http://www.cofcc.org/manifest.htm) and own a publishing house that is one of the best places to get The Camp of the Saints, a lovely book about Europe being over-run by mongrel minorities.

To hammer it in: this is why I don't trust stats from many places. When you follow the money, it gets a little scary. But anyhoo, you could come back with a rebuttal about SPLC and Morris Dees, but instead I hope we can save time and get off the numbers. (And if you don't like SPLC I actually have some ADL studies saying the same thing, let me know if you want them.)

....because no one is against LEGAL immigration here.

I know I know. But the whole "illegal" issue is such a nice gateway drug to more generalized eugenics, white supremacy, and population freakouts, dontcha think? As you may have noticed above. (I honestly don't think you are like that, I just wanted to show how creepy some of these groups are.)

Depending on who you believe, we took in 25000 to 30000 Jews during the holocaust. I agree, without quotas in place, we could have taken in more, but it is what it is.

I'm one of those who believe otherwise, but I won't get into that here for the sake of brevity. (Which I've been so successful with so far, haha)But thanks for the quote on that law. There should be some law about illegals and taxes...

What is wrong with Americans being "typically against" immigration anyway? Not that I am accepting your premise, but say it is true. So what? We are, for the most part, a majority rules democracy. If most of us feel that way, that's popular opinion. It's relatively easy for me though to accept that, since all other things being equal, I fall into the quota camp. I believe in the land of the free, but I also understand logistics and their necessary stipulations. We cannot accept everyone who wants to come here, that's just the reality of it.

True enough. Being against immigration and against immigrants are two different things. What I am arguing against, very poorly, is this sudden surge of fingerpointing against illegals. Its ridiculous to consider them the one source of ANY one problem in our country, and people that do so are making things very hard for Latinos. (Like this guy: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/27/D8H8G0SO0.html)I believe in the validity of the ADL's latest report too. I think anti-immigrant hate crimes are up. Its interesting how the violence starts when a whole country thinks your stealing their taxes and coming to re-conquest them.

So you believe existing immigration laws are unjust?

Yep, and so does capitol hill. Its just a matter of who its unjust for- illegals or citizens? Or both? You asked something about which laws (I erased it by accident) were being considered. I worded that wrong. They are thinking of changing the whole system. Among suggested changes:
-Adding more border security (tons more)
-Making crossing the border illegally a felony (rather than the tiny fed. misdemeanor it is now)
-Giving an easy path to citizenship to ppl living here more than 5 years
-Making citizenship easy for people under 18 living here two or more years.
This info can be found on the cover of every newspaper for the last month, so I won't bother giving you a link.

An American who was previously entitled to the market rate for their work now has to compete with the illegal alien for the same job. I do not believe the American should have to lower his or her standard of living to compete in an artificially deflated market, against PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Please find me a stat about the unemployment rate. I believe it is extremely low. And on wages... Bad wages can't be blamed on illegals exclusively. NAFTA, outsourcing, union membership decline, and oh yeah, um.... FREE TRADE CAPITALISM????

We need to enforce the laws we have on the books right now.

No no no. They don't work. Thats why they are not enforced. Maybe I should stop here and I will tell you all about this part tomorrow, b/c its worth getting into and I don't have the time to do it justice. To respond to the last few things quickly:

Very lively discussion I might add. It's a pleasure to actually speak with a worthy debater.

Thanks! Likewise.

ps: About 9/11, you're talking to someone who wholeheartedly believes that particular piece of our history was an inside job. See: WTC7. See: Controlled demolition. See: Not even mentioned in the Kean report. That's a whole 'nother can of worms though ;)

I'm partial to this belief since the Bush admin is so incredibly awful, I just haven't read enough yet. Maybe that should be my next pet-project...

While we are on conspiracy theory, allow me to free flow some of my crazy theory about illegal immigration. Let's see: SS is a Ponzi scheme, we all know this. We let these people pay into the system, knowing they cannot collect on it. That props up the Ponzi scheme a little longer. If my theory is correct, illegal immigrant SS payments help subsidize the SS payments to the boomer population, which is coming due within a decade.

Isn't this what I was saying? I wholeheartedly agree.

RE: How can Illegal Immigration help our Homeless situation?